A beloved podcast gets a second life

Invisibilia’s Yowei Shaw has gone independent with Proxy.

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Yowei Shaw was podcasting before Serial — before podcasts, that is, first boomed. Fifteen years later, podcasts are a part of many people’s regular entertainment, but also a part of a media industry facing routine decimation. In April 2022, Shaw was cut from her own job at NPR when the company canceled the beloved Invisibilia, a show about the things that shape human behavior. Shaw had taken over as co-host following the departures of Alix Spiegel and Hanna Rosin, having worked her way up after seven years with the program. 

“I wanted to keep doing this kind of work that deals with emotions,” she says over Zoom. “That takes emotions seriously and looks at the systems, ideas, and narratives that shape them.”

So last month, she launched Proxy, a fully independent podcast that deals with the niche and unexplored feelings that come with being human and connects guest with the “proxies” — experts and strangers with shared experiences. “I'm really interested in doing an episode on introverts resentful of the extroverts in their life, and then I really wanna do an episode about memory,” she says.

But the first three episodes are about something a little closer to home: layoffs. Shaw tells her own story before diving into those of other layoff victims and speaking with an HR professional for a candid conversation about why layoffs happen, and to answer some of the questions that never get addressed. 

Now, Shaw wants your stories. If you have a emotional question that needs answering, you can email her here. In this interview, she shares what she hopes to do with these questions, Proxy’s work so far, and what it’s like going independent in the podcast industry. 

Seven years is such a long time to dedicate to a single project. What were the circumstances of Invisibilia coming to an end?

As you're well aware, the media industry is collapsing right now and podcasting is in a crisis. Basically, NPR had a massive budget shortfall and they told us they needed to cut 10 percent of us. We would find out in a month. And so we had to sweat it out in a collective panic attack for a month. The sense that I got was that nobody really knew who was safe. So I really didn't know until the day I found out that I was getting laid off.

Had you been thinking about starting your own thing, like Proxy, before the layoff? How did that transition happen?

It comes from this move that I have made at Invisibilia a few times where I would have this niche emotional problem that I couldn't get good advice about friends and family, 'cause no one was going through that thing or had been through that thing. And then I would report a story on it. I don't know if you do this, researchers call it “me-search.” And so I would report a story on it and I find somebody else who had the same questions. I would understand better by understanding their feelings.

And after Invisibilia ended, I wanted to keep doing this kind of work that deals with emotions, that takes emotions seriously and looks at the systems, ideas, and narratives that shape them. And then I was like, "Why don't I just do the thing that I have been doing, but give that experience to other people?" At the end of the day, I really am a service journalist, so Proxy is basically just, I'm helping you report on your niche emotions. I'll find the experts, I'll find the people with shared experience that I think would be useful for you to talk to. I'll make the interview preps. I'll write the questions. I'll be your emotional buddy. This is not therapy — I'm not equipped to do that. It's not a typical advice show either.

The first three episodes have been a layoff trilogy. How are you packaging the episodes moving forward?

Everyone told me not to do it the way that I did it. I wasn't ready to put out the full season 'cause I just started making it, but I was also just like, I feel like this is useful now. There are layoffs happening all over. Why not just put it out now? And why not just start my Patreon now? So it's some amount of income coming in to support the show. And so basically I see the layoff trilogy series as the most souped-up trailer. So I'm accepting questions and cases right now and I'm hoping to hear from listeners.

I also have a bunch of questions that I'm already interested in. I'm really interested in doing an episode on introverts resentful of the extroverts in their life, and then I really wanna do an episode about memory. People who feel like they have a bad memory, not to the point where it's interfering with daily life. You just can't remember the details that happened like two years ago. I would like to connect that person with a memory researcher who can talk about how trauma and depression, anxiety are linked to memory issues.

A thing that we're all used to, having been in media for the past 10 years, is this need to turn your life into content. How do you keep healthy boundaries if what you're looking into is something that also resonates with you?

I'm dealing with that question right now. I am right now experiencing a vulnerability hangover. I want to retreat, but I'm supposed to promo my podcast. I think that most of the episodes going forward will not be personal and allow people the option to be anonymous. So I think that'll really help with that issue. In terms of this layoff series, I think I am new to this whole selling yourself situation. I worked in public radio for very long, I used to never look at the numbers. I've been so divorced from the reality of like, media business. And so this is all new for me, and I don't really know how it's gonna go. It's gonna be an experiment. Most people in my narrative audio industry, like there's a real aversion to putting yourself out there and to do TikTok. I feel like a lot of online and print journalists have made that jump. But like narrative audio people, there's only a few people who are comfortable doing that. And so I'm trying to do that. I made this ridiculous layoff music video. I'm making TikToks. I think like the way that I'm framing it is: It's a fun creative challenge.

It's interesting that there's an aversion because I feel like, from what I've seen, podcasts do better in that jump to TikTok than I sometimes feel my articles do. I think they work really well together. 

Are you talking about video podcasts or audio only?

Well I guess the thing is, to transfer them to TikTok, they have to come with some visual element. But if you just put something somewhat relevant, like pictures and the captions or whatever, it can work. It's interesting. 

Well this is very encouraging.

What you were saying is basically what my next question is, which is you were doing Invisibilia for seven years and are now totally independent. What have been the biggest differences, good or bad?

Oh my God. So I feel like I've finally grown up as a podcaster, 'cause I've now finally know what an RSS feed is. At Invisibilia and NPR, which is very well staffed, there's all these incredible teams of people who specialize and are experts at that one thing. So I never had to deal with any of that. I don't think there's really that much of a difference in the making of the episodes, 'cause it was always kind of a solitary experience. Obviously I don't have a production team but I still have an editor and I'm still working with a producer part-time. So there is some of that team collab happening. I would say the main differences are really just the infrastructure to put it out. And then the promo. That's been a rude awakening of just like, I made this show. I really think that this could be a new home for Invisibilia listeners. There isn't another show like this at the moment. But how do I get to them? I don't have a marketing budget. I'm not part of a production company or a network that can spam across dozens of podcasts.

It can sometimes feel in journalism that the safest bet is being independent because it's very unlikely that the entire rug is gonna get pulled out all at once. Do you think that's similar to the future of podcasting?

God, I'm so bad at answering this question. What I know is that production companies are saying yes a lot less. So I think if you want to make the work that you want to make, independent is probably one of the only routes you can take at this moment. It might change. Where do you pitch longform? At this point, it's just Radiolab, This American Life...there are several, but they are diminishing quickly. And so I think that's the real challenge for people in my world. We all are in love with a very particular kind of audio storytelling and audio journalism, just the jobs and the platforms and the outlets are few and far between now. I never would've thought that I would've made my own show. I have no idea if it's gonna pan out. But it's been really, really liberating.

What are your goals for Proxy, specifically?

I wanna put out the first season. I think this is kind of a trial run to see if this is something sustainable, so basically this year I'm going hard. I have a part-time job that I like that pays the bills. Basically I'm trying to get enough listeners and enough Patreon members to make the mix of ad revenue and Patreon memberships make sense. I think it's a promo challenge, but also like, do people want this enough to support it? So we'll see.